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Thread: MS offering to buy Yahoo ???

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by think0r View Post
    While that sounds a lot like handing out milk in cookies approach to this problem the reality is that all the milk and cookies in the world isn't going to make the current licensing issue any better. It doesn't matter if MS buys Yahoo or not. The possibility of this is unacceptable to clients. Your current license exposes us to this risk of having all of our Zimbra implementations turned into bastardware. How could I possibly consult my clients to adopt Zimbra when it can so easily be bought up and shut down without the possibility of being taken over by the community?

    Please reform your license ASAP, this is a most urgent issue that should be taken seriously, your client's are at risk.
    I don't think there will be license changes, after all, Zimbra had much more sane license before Yahoo aquisition. YPL is like badgeware GPL, while ZPL was badgeware MPL.

    Luckily, quite advanced and stable server side Zimbra was released under MPL until Yahoo came in. That code plus Zimbra toolkit should be enough for an exit strategy if worse happens. Yep, that will be 6 months to a year of intensive work to get where Zimbra is now, but, what the hell.....could be very much worth the trouble.

  2. #102
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    Guys I know right now the news (that I've been sitting watching for about 15 hrs or so since waking up to it UK time long before the US PST timezone guys woke) is going to shake a lot of people who will assume that a licencing change is going to be a necessary step to make but right now you should hold fire.

    I've done consultancy on the Zimbra payroll, I've sat and worked with the employees in San Mateo and I've sat across the table from Scott D who I trust implicitly and talked to him in depth about both the licencing model and the commitment and dedication that goes into each and every release. Whilst any change of direction or financial input there is always nerves. I've been through this at Linuxcare and then VA Linux imploding. I've also turned down acquisition attempts by Red Hat and two household US brand name companies for my own company SmoothWall which some of you may remember/use.

    This is very very early days. Zimbra has revenue, Zimbra has mindset and it has customers. A MS acquisition of Yahoo would need to go through months and months of federal regulatory approval and also would result in no massive changes to a trading organisation in the first 12-18 months post any successful acquisition.

    Anyone assuming that this is black and white needs to temper this with a sense of realism.

    I don't need the money - I took Scott D at his word and I believed in his licencing stance and bought into Zimbra as an individual, I also use the product.

    Manning the lifeboats and talking about forking is more than premature. A sense of balance and realism is why successful people use Open Source - if you're already lined up in the midst of that mix of people then don't make the sort of assumptions your proprietary colleagues staring like rabbits at headlights make. You're different for a reason which is why you care about what happens next.

  3. #103
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    would that mean the entire web client, admin interface, and all the improvements in 5.0 would have to be abandoned as part of the exit strategy on the Zimbra people's part? That would be a major setback. It didn't dawn on me that a badgeware license could be so self-damaging. WOW!

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by dickmorrell View Post
    Guys I know right now the news (that I've been sitting watching for about 15 hrs or so since waking up to it UK time long before the US PST timezone guys woke) is going to shake a lot of people who will assume that a licencing change is going to be a necessary step to make but right now you should hold fire.

    I've done consultancy on the Zimbra payroll, I've sat and worked with the employees in San Mateo and I've sat across the table from Scott D who I trust implicitly and talked to him in depth about both the licencing model and the commitment and dedication that goes into each and every release. Whilst any change of direction or financial input there is always nerves. I've been through this at Linuxcare and then VA Linux imploding. I've also turned down acquisition attempts by Red Hat and two household US brand name companies for my own company SmoothWall which some of you may remember/use.

    This is very very early days. Zimbra has revenue, Zimbra has mindset and it has customers. A MS acquisition of Yahoo would need to go through months and months of federal regulatory approval and also would result in no massive changes to a trading organisation in the first 12-18 months post any successful acquisition.

    Anyone assuming that this is black and white needs to temper this with a sense of realism.

    I don't need the money - I took Scott D at his word and I believed in his licencing stance and bought into Zimbra as an individual, I also use the product.

    Manning the lifeboats and talking about forking is more than premature. A sense of balance and realism is why successful people use Open Source - if you're already lined up in the midst of that mix of people then don't make the sort of assumptions your proprietary colleagues staring like rabbits at headlights make. You're different for a reason which is why you care about what happens next.
    Actually, it IS pretty much black and white No one here thinks that changes will happen overnight, but, the more the waiting, the more of Zimbra will advance under not so nice YPL license.

    I'm not afraid of what will happen in 6 months, I'm afraid of what will happen in three years. How will you sell Zimbra in three years? "Look, we have a better product than MS Outlook, it is MS Zimbra"?

    Zimbra and MS don't mix together, that is why it is black and white. Some of us have to make decisions and commit resources to Zimbra. Some people use it, some sell it, and some are building products with or around it.

    Second and third category are screwed if this deal goes, and first probably screwed after two or three years.

    Second and third category need exit strategy right now. We can not afford wait-and-see attitude, because it may be to late.

    That's why I'm glad there are some versions on MPL. That's also why I really like true open source licenses.
    Last edited by fselendic; 02-01-2008 at 02:43 PM.

  5. #105
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    Angry Microsoft buying Yahoo - terrible news

    This is immensely disappointing and I hope it does not come to fruition.

    Damn Microsoft to Hades!

  6. #106
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    Exclamation Badgeware FUD

    Ok guys, I'm going to have to put my I-am-not-a-lawyer-but-I-can-read hat on again. I think everyone is getting a little excessively hot and bothered about the badging element of the Zimbra and Yahoo licenses. Just because the software has a requirement for a "powered by Zimbra" badging requirement does not suddenly put the clamps on anybody developing the software even in the (by no means certain or probable) event that MS buys Yahoo and shuts down Zimbra.

    An interesting discussion of whether badgeware can legitimately be called "Open Source" is in this article. This is another non-lawyer's opinion, but I'm gonna quote him anyway:
    Why does badgeware exist?

    Simply put - It stops the Larrys of the world from taking your code, branding it with their big fat "O", making a mint off of it, and never paying you a nickle. Its another method that open source companies have found to create cash from "free" (or "monetizing" - stupid word).
    So let's have a look at the badging requirements the YPL imposes on us. The complete license is here. I believe the relevant language is the following (emphasis mine):
    • 3.2 - In any copy of the Software or in any Modification you create, You must retain and reproduce, any and all copyright, patent, trademark, and attribution notices that are included in the Software in the same form as they appear in the Software. This includes the preservation of attribution notices in the form of trademarks or logos that exist within a user interface of the Software.
    • 3.3 - This license does not grant You rights to use any party's name, logo, or trademarks, except solely as necessary to comply with Section 3.2.
    What's important in this section is what it does NOT say. Nowhere in the license is there any mention that Yahoo, or its successors/assigns/acquirers, can yank from you the right to use the very logo that you must use to be in compliance with sections 3.2 and 3.3.

    To my reading (and again, I am neither a laywer nor a Zimbra employee), anybody has a right to continue using and improving the Zimbra software as it stands today, even if tomorrow they announced that no more versions were going to be issued or that the license terms were being changed to something more limiting and onerous. Nothing in the license you have agreed to by installing any version so far--and as of today that is 4.5.10 and 5.0.1--binds you to any future license terms which may be different.

    I believe this means the worst possible scenario is that the community might have to fork off based on the version that is in force with the license that is in force RIGHT NOW, and continue to tolerate a "powered by Zimbra" logo (which logo, btw, doesn't even include Yahoo!'s name) even if the new product gets named something else. Irritating? Maybe, but not the end of the software, let alone the end of the world.

    Dan

    Edit: I should add this is my interpretation of the FOSS side of the world. I am not claiming I know even this much about the NE proprietary stuff, which I suspect could be (I am not saying "will be") more easily limited since it's never been released under ANY open license.
    Last edited by dwmtractor; 02-01-2008 at 03:02 PM. Reason: Clarify FOSS discussion

  7. #107
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    @dwmtractor

    Yep, that's all true.

    However, when you dig in deeper, the question is who will continue work on Zimbra (if worst nightmare happens ).

    There are two ways of continuing;
    either some company continues where Zimbra has stopped or pure opensource people continue the work.

    In both cases, I can bet whatever you want, it will be impossible becouse of "badgeware".

    Neither some company or OS people want to contribute to something that will carry another company logo. That's why badgeware works, after all, against all of those who could simply take the code and profit from it

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by fselendic View Post
    Neither some company or OS people want to contribute to something that will carry another company logo. That's why badgeware works, after all, against all of those who could simply take the code and profit from it
    I dunno. Think of it as a badge of honor. Even if M$ or Y! kills Z, the Z--which is all that is on the badge--lives on.

  9. #109
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    I was hoping Zimbra would follow in the footsteps of SugarCRM and go GPL3. I hope some other company decides to brave all the "badges of honor" added to the interface on "every page" with a link back to microsoft.com on a re-release. I wonder if Zimbra would even exist if we had to add a badge of honor for every component that it composes of on every page. Imagine 100x30 images of postfix, mysql, tomcat, java, ajax, clamav, amavisd, etc etc. On every single page within the web client. this doesn't seem good. I hope I am wrong here.

  10. #110
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    Bottom line:

    MS = death of Zimbra in its current form

    Either the deal is rejected by Yahoo and its share holders or Zimbra is sold NOW to some other party or its time to start looking for yet more alternatives to MS Exchange.

    BRW

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