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Thread: is ZD really a windows app?

  1. #1
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    Default is ZD really a windows app?

    Is there any reason that the windows minimize button "_" makes the taskbar button disappear, and for the close button "x" to NOT close the application? It's a Windows application which I was expecting to react like a windows application. Can I at least set it somewhere right once for all?

    And why the weird installation default directory:
    C:\Documents and Settings\MyUser\Local Settings\Application Data\Zimbra\zdesktop
    What is wrong with the good ol' Program Files? Am I breaking something if I choose program files?

    Or maybe is this application targeting Linux/someother platform, and just happens to run also under windows? The above decisions really look like being pulled out some funny hat...

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    And why, if I select it to install in English, on my english XP, at first start it's still German?
    Later it's a complete mess anyway, half the buttons are in German, half in English (my setting in "Optionen" says american english, ha)

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    Quote Originally Posted by mario22 View Post
    Is there any reason that the windows minimize button "_" makes the taskbar button disappear, and for the close button "x" to NOT close the application? It's a Windows application which I was expecting to react like a windows application. Can I at least set it somewhere right once for all?

    And why the weird installation default directory:
    C:\Documents and Settings\MyUser\Local Settings\Application Data\Zimbra\zdesktop
    What is wrong with the good ol' Program Files? Am I breaking something if I choose program files?

    Or maybe is this application targeting Linux/someother platform, and just happens to run also under windows? The above decisions really look like being pulled out some funny hat...
    First of all, please be assured that we didn't make these decisions lightly. These are not some arbitrary behaviors, but rather by design.

    Regarding minimize and close to tray. This is because that an email client and production suite like Zimbra Desktop is considered a "modal application", meaning that most users will keep it running through out the day. Also when minimized to tray new mail notification will continue to function. Because users may keep Zimbra Desktop running but minimized for notifications, in the minimized mode we behave as if it's a background process with a tray icon.

    Regarding install location, currently there's some software limitation preventing us from completely separating program files and user data into different paths, we chose to install under the "Application Data" location. The first priority is to keep user data private. That said, please note that Zimbra Desktop is not the only produce to pick this location by default. Many other Windows products do this, just not as common as Program Files.

    Hope that answers your questions.

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    Thank you for your answers.

    I understand that installing in ApplicationData should be only a temporary solution right? I certainly hope it's not a solution going to stick because honestly said, I have yet to hear from those "many Windows applications" - I use Windows since 3.0 and I can't remember any.

    Regarding the minimize: I am not commenting what is doing when minimized. I'm complaining why it won't close when you tell it "close". If the user wants it minimized there's in Windows a special button called "minimize", you don't need to abuse the button "close" for that. And in Windows "close" does exactly that: it closes the application. There's no "close to tray" - unless you mean the special button "close to tray" with a dot as seen in some applications, but again, it's a different thing. I'm talking about the non-functional "x" button called "close". Not tray. Close. Or in other words, "exit".
    Last edited by mario22; 01-15-2009 at 04:19 PM.

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    Google's Chrome browser is one example:

    C:\Users\<name>\AppData\Local\Google\Chrome\Applic ation\chrome.exe

    By "many" I certainly didn't mean the majority. But I have seen my share.

    Clicking "x" to minimize to tray is also not invented by us. Many other apps do the same. Again I don't mean the majority. And most of these apps are considered long running apps, not something like Notepad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jjzhuang View Post
    Google's Chrome browser is one example:

    C:\Users\<name>\AppData\Local\Google\Chrome\Applic ation\chrome.exe

    By "many" I certainly didn't mean the majority. But I have seen my share.

    Clicking "x" to minimize to tray is also not invented by us. Many other apps do the same. Again I don't mean the majority. And most of these apps are considered long running apps, not something like Notepad.
    Ok, I never had a reason to install Chrome so I missed that one. This makes the first on my list. But if Google breaks some basic and obvious rule, should we all jump in? Or maybe is this coming from the outdated POSIX standard which says the executables of applications installed for a single user must go in ~/?
    To me "Application Data" means "Data", not "Program Files and The Kitchen Sink". It gets be also complicated when you want to backup user files, application settings, application files... On the other hand there are actually MANY more applications which will store EVERYTHING in "Program Files", which is just as silly

    When I hover the mouse over the "x" it bubbles "close", not "minimize". That's also what the Help in Windows says. Of course, one could argue that by "close" they didn't mean "close the program" but only "close the front window and let the program running". Certainly not what grandma would expect (or I). That's why there are utilities "minimize to tray" and some applications added such a button - so they won't break the expected "close".
    I wonder whether applications with the funny "x" behaviour would get the Windows-certified logo... anyway from what I've seen they mostly come from IBM - not exactly a role model for user friendliness (think Sametime or Notes or whatever development tool). At least Sametime lets you customize this behaviour: there's a setting where you can decide to minimize to tray or really close.

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    I think we are getting way off the topic here. I'm not defending that installing into user data is ideal at all. I already said in my previous post that this is due to a software limitation.

    Regarding "close to tray", again we are doing this not *because* others are doing this. We have a good reason to do it because minimizing to tray allows notification to continue function when minimized.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jjzhuang View Post
    I think we are getting way off the topic here. I'm not defending that installing into user data is ideal at all. I already said in my previous post that this is due to a software limitation.

    Regarding "close to tray", again we are doing this not *because* others are doing this. We have a good reason to do it because minimizing to tray allows notification to continue function when minimized.
    We're not off-topic - I opened the topic and this is exactly what I wanted to discuss

    Regarding "minimize to tray" - again: I'm NOT ARGUING AGAINST the benefits of minimizing to tray. I'm arguing against using the "close" button for that! And there are some solutions:
    1. ZD becomes a new button with a dot "." which does that "minimize to tray". More work for you, but pretty much Windows standard.
    2. ZD becomes a setting to switch the "x" button from "minimize to tray" to "close". User decides for himself which way he wants it, with notifications or not. Default can be "minimize to tray" for the regular folks. Just a bit more work for you, but I'd lose the reason to complain.
    3. ZD button "x" does only "close". There are freeware apps which can add the "minimize to tray" button to any application. User installs such one if he wants "minimize to tray". May be too much responsibility for the user and you would have to drop already working functionality.

    If 1 is too much work, I'd go for 2 and install myself if I'll ever need (not yet) the "minimize to tray" extra-button-application.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mario22 View Post
    Regarding "minimize to tray" - again: I'm NOT ARGUING AGAINST the benefits of minimizing to tray. I'm arguing against using the "close" button for that!
    Zimbra Desktop runs in the background as a service. When you close the viewer, you are closing the viewer. The service remains running in the system tray.

    Microsoft Messenger works in exactly the same way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirk View Post
    Zimbra Desktop runs in the background as a service. When you close the viewer, you are closing the viewer. The service remains running in the system tray.

    Microsoft Messenger works in exactly the same way.
    Not using that either... Anyway, for each example of application which works in exactly the same way there are zillions which do it the right way - enumerating in front of me MS Word, IE, Firefox, Windows Explorer, Lotus Notes, Eclipse. But what others do is not a reason so I'll forget this.

    Your first phrase is actually the interesting one. So ZD IS REALLY closing, just its Windows service stays open... Is then the Windows service the one shown in the tray popping the notifications?

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